Here's the scenario

 

1    I have a multibody weldment part

Insert Feature > Save Bodies

Create New Assembly of similar bodies

Transfer Cut List Properties to Model Properties Checked

RESULT - Good  Everything works as expected

 

2     Make Some New Assemblies and Subs using the Parts created to mimic production process - Good

 

3     Rebuild Main Assembly using the Assemblies I just created - Good

 

4     Make Drawings - All Good

 

except for this annoyance when I get to put my Table in...

 

 

What Strange is the other two pertinent properties (Width and Thickness ) also both transferred from the cutlist populate just fine.

(You can't see them directly, because they are hidden, but the columns L , W and T pick up either a cutlist property created by a structural member or by a bounding box and they are working just fine as you can see)

 

The length property is resolved in the part OK   

 

Cutlists always do my head in.  Especially as the shop is waiting for this one.  Any ideas anyone?

 

Cheers


Categories: Modeling and Assemblies, Weldments

Comments
Last comment By: Rob Edwards   Thu, 22 Mar 2018 23:25:35 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

It matters not about the sub assemblies I created because it doesn't work in the assembly SW automatically created either.  Its just the same

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 12:24:18 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob,

 

I've run into the situation before where I'd get the text string instead of the value, but in every case it showed the same way in the Part.  I know that using quotation marks in the description property can cause that, but I've seen it other times also, and have never been able to figure out what was causing the problem.  I wish I could help, but all I can suggest is try different things in the Part to fix it, like maybe editing the feature that created the body.

By: Glenn Schroeder  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:05:20 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hey Rob can you post the part?  Maybe we can see if we can replicate the problem.  Also, I'd send in a support ticket with the VAR.  If this isn't a system issue, it darn well is a bug and needs to be fixed.

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:22:07 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Glen

I'll do that, I'm just a bit worried in case the whole thing blows up on me.  I've nervously tried lots of things, including editing the Save Bodies Feature, but I might just change the EX-DIMS and force a complete rebuild all the way up

 

BTW. I have found that the problem is in the split part itself, because even though the custom properties look good when I look at them, I tried adding a few global variables with this result

 

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:26:45 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Yeah I don't mind posting it up, It'll take me a little bit, to work out what I need to include.. I think I'm probably best creating a full backup before I mess it up completely.

 

Unfortunately I'm off subs otherwise, yeh I'd be right onto the VAR..  When I was on subs, this forum was far better at getting a solution anyway

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:31:41 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Matt

 

Here's a sample drawing, showing the problem.. I hope I've included enough files

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:32:32 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob,

All I've had a chance to do so far is look at it.  I'm not sure exactly how all of that is linked together.  But, you've got the "LENGTH" in all uppercase, weldment style.  Would it be possible to change that custom property to something like Length1 or something different from "LENGTH"?  I'm wondering if this isn't something to do with the reserved word "LENGTH"?

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:03:52 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

It is the reserved word LENGTH, it's generated for me by the Weldment Feature.

It's pretty crazy how you can transfer your cut list properties to the parts but then can't use them!

The 3D Bounding Box ones aren't working either so that's probably the case

Maybe I should have transferred them as cutlist items instead?

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:11:50 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Rob,

First: I have to admit - this is a really great and sophisticated job.

Second: I added a new column to BOM - "Long Description" Custom Property, where "LENGTH" is a part of equation.

It looks like SW is not able to link this property from Part level to Assembly level.

Capture.JPG

(Not sure if it helps)

By: Vladimir Urazhdin  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:18:08 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

I don't know if it's of help but when I try to generate a BOM from your assembly, I don't get cutlist options for the BOM

Here's what I get when I created a part as a weldment and added a BOM:

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:23:07 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Rob,

 

It's missing the quotation marks. I have seen that happen using the property tabs. SW can on occasion delete those. Try to add them and see if that resolves the link.

 

By: Elmar Klammer  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:45:33 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thankyou all for your excellent input.  I think you are all correct.

 

The first thing I did was use my original master to get the cutlist and print out the drawing and sent it into the shop.

 

then..

I dared to alter my Save Bodies Feature to insert as Cut List Items NOT File Properties

 

 

And it works... !  I was able to add a detailed cutlist as you suggest Matt

 

The table is not quite so nice as it has the extra line, but I can live with that.

(I presume the double entry for W and T is the old properties still hanging around)

 

Elmar I think you are on to something there.  I tried adding quotations into my BOM equation, but it didn't like it.

Here I was trying to delimit them..

 

 

Anyway , I'm well happy.  I really like this master model technique, for weldments.  and then being able to create parts and sub assemblies.  The ability to use a cutlist in the drawing is so quick and well good enough for our requirements.

 

Thanks for your kind words Vladimir You are correct the assembly cannot read the property, but what surprizes me is neither can the part!

 

Happy Days!

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:21:18 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob,

A little late to the party, but you are not the first one this has happened to. Usually it is not my length but actual material size. The quotation marks are sometimes the culprit. I usually have to re-apply the parametric parameters per item to get them to come in driven by the model. Which means isolating the cutlist properties, then clicking on the appropriate part in the model and deleting the offensive formula and re-stating the values from the model to get the material size in the cut list to populate from the model. It is bothersome, bt for the 10 years I have been doing weldments it is 1 continous "bug" that rears it's ugly head just often enough to make you scratch your head.

By: Paul Risley  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:30:13 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Paul, I'll add that tip to my memory... culists are such a pain.  It's literally taken me 4 years to get this far!

This is my other bugbear with them.  With a 3D Bounding Box 43mm wide and 191 Thick!

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:45:34 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Pick the bones out of this one!

 

In this assembly the lengths are now populating into the part in meters.  I guess I just need to go in and tidy up a bit

 

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:05:28 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob Edwards wrote:

 

Thanks Paul, I'll add that tip to my memory... culists are such a pain. It's literally taken me 4 years to get this far!

This is my other bugbear with them. With a 3D Bounding Box 43mm wide and 191 Thick!

Rob,

I had a couple of minutes to kill and took a quick look. Your bounding box is correct. See image below:

Capture.JPG

In your cutlist all of the pieces are inclusive as 1 element. So the bounding box picks up all of them as 1 solid piece across the span of your work piece. I have not had time to look further into your weldment part to see the other issues. 1 thing when a weldment cutlist is updated and a folder is created there are some quirks versus it giving you a weld icon. If parts are in the folder it means they are not structural entities recognized by the software.(Which I am sure you have figured out by now.) Hence your using the bounding box to get sizing. I would put 1 piece in and pattern them or move copy bodies to achieve my end result. Not sure if that is what you did as I said I took a quick look and did not dig deep into it. If I have time this afternoon or tomorrow morning i will look at it a little deeper and see if there is anything glaring that could be causing so many issues with your cut list.

By: Paul Risley  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:30:20 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Paul, any advice is much appreciated. 

I think I will experiment with Glenn's technique of using a structural member to create plate and sidestep the bounding box nonsene altogether

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:43:11 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

I use 1 weldment profile for all bar and modify sizing per what is needed. I tried the configuration method of weldment profiles and it was cumbersome after everyone started putting new ones in to accomodate their parts they were using on their projects.

Capture.JPG

All of this structure minus the transparent parts that are enveloped were done with 2 weldment profiles. 1 for tubing and 1 for plate. Just change the profile dimensionally and voila pretty flexible design structure. 1 thing is do not tie your profiles with equal relations learned that one fairly early on. If you are making a profile 2" x 2" , dimension both vertical and horizontal with no equal relationship between them. This gives you flexibility to quickly change from square to rectangular stock.(2 x 4, 1 x 3 etc..)

 

Also on weld set up the first thing I do with anyone new to our facility is explain to them to remove the "add derived configuration" option in their settings. Nothing drives me more nuts than opening a welded structure and seeing 3 or 4 configurations with a derived machined and welded 1 for each of those.

By: Paul Risley  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:55:05 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Rob,

 

Just some thoughts on weldments in general. I do use them a lot but within strict guide lines. I don't use the function to propagate cut list properties to split parts or other advanced features like boss extrude recognition, sub-weldments, split feature assembly, sheetmetal.

 

Splitting out weldments into individual parts to make an assembly is odd. The in context relations on top of that. All the extra line items in indented BOM is the pits. For a single body weldment parts this always adds up to 2 line items. Weldments can only be used with indented BOM's if you need the meta data. And you do.

Then you are exposed to SW code quality to make sure all those props populate okay. Then all the extra parts. The master weldment part,

the individual split parts, then the assembly. Keeping track of all this is a task and a half. I tried to edit your split feature and had to relink all bodies to the new file locations. To do that I first had to remember all your file names (not numbers) only to relink to the new path.

That is way too much for my liking.  I would scream my voice cords into Pretzl shape if I had to edit a large assembly that was built like that.

Not to mention the rebuild times.

A real good system is a combination of simple, reliable and easy to edit. Working with advanced weldment function doesn't give that impression. I think the weldment functionality has always been too convoluted and the idea never really fit in that well. Modeling is great and fairly easy. But the moment you need to manage meta data it becomes a hassle. That's the breaking point. Modeling and meta data must be tightly linked. That's why keeping weldments simple is important. Using a hybrid modeling style works best around the many quirks. Stick with basic assembly technique and use weldments in it to accelerate structural modeling. Keeping all the information in the weldment part itself and avoid the use of split features to create assemblies from bodies.

And all that doesn't touch on the subject of sheet metal (not to mention gauge table, or custom thickness annotation, drawing reference & flat blocks). I can still remember enough issues between service packs of the last 5 releases when cut list dimensions were wrong or not available at all.

 

Regarding weldments - Key is keep it simple!

 

Elmar

By: Elmar Klammer  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:20:21 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Elmar

 

I'm doubt I'll be using this technique again.  The dilemma I face is that I have to model a 'concept' for the customer, which as you know is 'always' going to change in unpredictable ways.  I love how fast designing a multibody part is, and there's no external relations to deal with, but as you say the detailing is the bugbear.  With this model I wanted to check how we would manufacture and install it so that's why I recreated an assembly.  The technique I normally use is to add some keep-body features at the end of the tree and add a configuration for each of these pseudo sub weldments.  Then In my drawing I have 1 master cutlist and a configuration to detail individual bodies or groups of bodies.

I was hoping that transferring cut list properties to file properties was going to be an excellent solution, but as I've discovered it just doesn't work.

Transfering them as cutlist items produces some really bizarre results, so yes  KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is excellent advice - myself being the stupid one.  Thanks again

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:49:57 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hey Rob,

Head over to building grid how to show and dimension to it in a drawing. Elmar and Daen have some really interesting posts about their modeling techniques.

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:55:36 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

This Idea may be of some interest, if you haven't already voted for it:  Option to link to cut list properties in custom/configuration properties and BOM

By: Glenn Schroeder  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:14:27 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Rob,

 

I believe that I can learn as much from failure as I can learn from success. Being stupid at times need not be a bad thing.

So many times I have found the one thing I never looked for (but need to know) while I was getting stuck in a dead end solution. I like to believe that allowing yourself to make mistakes is a good thing. Not learning from mistakes may not be beneficial I would say. Desperately trying not to ever make mistakes is what I would call stupid.

 

Elmar

By: Elmar Klammer  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:18:10 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

That's a pretty spot on assessment Elmar.

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:34:08 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Glenn,

I forgot I already voted on that.  As far as I'm concerned that should be an SPR as a bug!

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:35:20 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

This Idea may be of some interest, if you haven't already voted for it:  Option to link to cut list properties in custom/configuration properties and BOM

If only I could Glenn, it's pay to play

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:49:52 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

And you can't enter it into the knowledgebase to get it filed as a bug because you are off subscription.

By: Matt Peneguy  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:35:23 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

No but maybe I could upload a simple example of it not working and someone else could

By: Rob Edwards  Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:54:57 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Hi Rob,

 

I use weldments a lot with piping and frames etc. I came up against and are still up against it's weirdness along with all the frustrations. there is a thread here you may find useful

Using Plate in Weldments

Try this weldment feature file for plate that i use. It will come in at default size of 10mm x 100 wide. You can just change/edit it to whatever you like and it will populate the cut list correctly for the plate, from bounding box info. It's a configurable profile with all plate thickness in there, you just have to set up a folder inside the structure of where your other weldment profiles are

eg

weldment profiles/configurable profiles/plate.sldlfp

If you are not already using the configurable profile (added, I think in 2016), they save alot of time, as all profiles for that particular section are within one file, as configurations, so changing sizes is a bit easier.

 

Cheers

Neville

By: Neville Williams  Mon, 15 Jan 2018 22:15:50 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Neville. 

I have a new project I'm starting tomorrow and will give it a run out

By: Rob Edwards  Mon, 15 Jan 2018 22:51:41 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob it took a little bit to get some free time to actually work on this for 1'2 hour straight. But this is the approach I would have taken for concepting and/or designing what you had here.

Since you already designed it, this just shows another way to process(design intent). If you roll back the layout pattern at the bottom of the tree you can access the main framework. Also by rolling back you could add in any features before the pattern and just re-populate the pattern with those new parts and voila complete assembly as needed. When it comes to weldments and what you have to do I would strongly urge patterns and mirrors of bodies.

I know this is only 1 example of what you work on, but layout work can be quite fast in a multi body enviroment with just patterns and mirrors.

 

Take a look and if you have any questions just message me.

By: Paul Risley  Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:32:02 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Paul Thankyou massively for taking a look at this.  Unfortunately you are a future version, so I cannot see what you have done

By: Rob Edwards  Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:40:46 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob Edwards wrote:

 

Paul Thankyou massively for taking a look at this. Unfortunately you are a future version, so I cannot see what you have done

Sorry about the future version. I am attaching some parasolids. 1 is a complete patterned part the other is a derivative with just the 2 base parts that create the whole cornerstone of the assembled parts.

Capture.JPG

By: Paul Risley  Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:54:19 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Thanks Paul

I think I am already doing what you suggest in my master model.

I start with these 9 bodies, basically just model a single corner

and then mirrors, body copies and patterns get me finished

 

I'm not too sure what you suggest I should do different.

 

On reflection I think what got me in a mess on this job was trying to recreate a logical sub-assembly structure based on what we would assemble in the workshop and what we would assemble on site.  It was just far too much work and way too fiddly having to jump through all kind of hoops.

 

The save bodies feature is beguiling in that it can create just my unique bodies as separate parts really quick, but not being able to transfer the Length cut list property as a model property so that I can use a simple BOM kind of killed any positive benefit.

By: Rob Edwards  Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:31:24 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Rob Edwards wrote:

 

Thanks Paul

I think I am already doing what you suggest in my master model.

I start with these 9 bodies, basically just model a single corner

and then mirrors, body copies and patterns get me finished

 

I'm not too sure what you suggest I should do different.

 

On reflection I think what got me in a mess on this job was trying to recreate a logical sub-assembly structure based on what we would assemble in the workshop and what we would assemble on site. It was just far too much work and way too fiddly having to jump through all kind of hoops.

 

The save bodies feature is beguiling in that it can create just my unique bodies as separate parts really quick, but not being able to transfer the Length cut list property as a model property so that I can use a simple BOM kind of killed any positive benefit.

I would say you are on the right track. We don't save out the bodies as you do. Rather we create multi page drawings of the weldment as it is constructed to keep the integrity based on the part itself.

Simplifying it where you can and knowing where you cannot take it to a simpler more clean design is just something everyone has to learn based on their company's criteria.

The biggest rub that you,I or anyone else faces is the everlasting changes that we have to deal with from the initial criteria of a project. So when laying out and designing anything we always have to have the mindset "how hard is this going to be to change when the customer decides to go a different direction".

With each design you learn a little more of what works for you and that is truly the only ay to develop the plan for your next project and it keeps going on.

I think where you are heading with your train of thought is right and what you have seen is it will work well for you as you go on. The simplified bom is a nice idea.

Capture.JPG

I did not spend a lot of time setting this one up but this is just a dummy version of our cut list as it would appear in our projects.Part # identifiers can be assigned in the weldment and brought into the cutlist then on the multipage drawing each tab of the drawing is named to the corresponding part that is detailed on that drawing. When we finish we save it out as a multipage PDF and then anyone in our shop can quickly scroll through 1 document for all of the parts that make up the weldment.

By: Paul Risley  Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:50:03 GMT
Re: Length Not Showing in BOM - Strange because Width and Thickness are!

Much to my relief it fitted!

SW really has allowed us to increase our accuracy and design better, but the cutlists and drawings are still my bugbear.  It's getting easier each time though, looking forward to the next project

By: Rob Edwards  Thu, 22 Mar 2018 23:25:35 GMT
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